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Wednesday, April 15, 2009

"Dead Is Dead" Discussion

[Listen to this episode!] [Subscribe to the MP3 feed via iTunes]

the JoshMeister and fellow LOST fans discuss Season 5 Episode 12, "Dead Is Dead", and take a look at what we might see in episode 13, "Some Like It Hoth".

The Official LOST Podcast - Non-spoiler notes:
  • The fan-named shocking season finale scene is officially being dubbed "The Fork in the Outlet" (not a spoiler since it was named and voted on by fans)
Season 5 Episode 12 "Dead Is Dead" notes:
  • 1977
    • Charles Widmore: "You brought one of them to the temple."
    • Richard: "Jacob wanted it to be done. The Island chooses who it wants."

    • Charles to Ben: "You should be dead, Benjamin. But this island, it saved your life."

  • Present
    • Ben: "I knew it! I knew that this would happen."
      • TheMissingToe: "I don't thing Ben thought Locke would resurrect. He was using Locke to get everyone back and thought he could take his place again as leader and gain favor again with the island"
    • Ben: "I broke the rules, John. I came back to the island. I was going back to answer for what I'd done. I was going back to be judged."
    • John Locke: "By whom?"
    • Ben: "John, we don't even have a word for it. But I believe you call it the monster."
      • What the monster is: a judge

    • Ben tries to turn Caesar on John, says he didn't kill him and didn't see him on the plane, says maybe John was on the Island all the time and might be deranged

  • Flashback
    • "Shut up and stay here, Ethan"
    • Danielle Rousseau's tent on the beach
    • Ben steals Alex
    • Ben says he'll kill Danielle if she follows him
    • Ben: "If you want your child to live, every time you hear whispers, you run away."
      • Lostgeek108: "Why does he warn her about the whispers?"
        • Maybe just to get her to keep herself alive so he won't feel so bad about taking her daughter
        • TheMissingToe: "I think the whispers can hold a lot of answers to those on the island - if they follow them or something - and he wants her to stay completely away"
        • Guest 13: "always thought the whispers represented the monster and ben wants her to stay away from it to be safe"
      • Why did Ben steal Alex in the first place? Why not leave her with Danielle if he was going to let Danielle live?
        • TheMissingToe: "Perhaps this was Ben's big "test" with the hostiles and, like Locke was initially, he couldn't kill (at that point) - Plus the baby provides Ben with his first chance at undermining Charles in front of the hostiles - his long term plan being to become the leader"
    • Timeline hint: danno@large: "Danielle arrives on the Island before the purge: 1988. The purge occurs in 1992, according to lostpedia"
      • In or after 1992 because Ben is living amongst the Others - Ethan would have been about 15
        • How did Ethan become an Other?

  • Present
    • Locke and Ben prepare to take a boat, Caesar comes over and Ben indicated that it was Locke's idea, and Caesar reaches for his shotgun to try to threaten Locke with it
    • Ben, who apparently had stolen the gun from Caesar, shoots Caesar in the chest and gives the gun to Locke, saying "Consider that my apology."
      • James721: "Ben had to kill Ceasar because Ceasar might have told Locke about their earlier conversation"

    • Sun and Lapidus' boat were there

    • Ben: "No, someone else hurt my arm."
      • Desmond, presumably
    • The only place Ben can summon the monster is from his old house
    • Locke theorizes that Ben really wants to be judged for "killing his daughter"

  • Flashback
    • Charles Widmore is the boss on the Island among The Others
    • He had given Ben orders to kill Rousseau and didn't tell Ben about the baby
    • Charles orders Ben to kill baby Alex, but Ben refuses

  • Present
    • Ghostly image passes Alex's room
    • Ben enters house, Sun and Frank Lapidus are there
    • Ben pretends not to know about her friends having been in the DHARMA Initiative
      • Surely he remembered; he lived among them, and the photo would have been there at the barracks ever since the Others took over
    • Sun: Christian "said if I ever wanted to see my husband again, I'd wait here for John Locke"
    • Frank goes back to the plane to try to fix the radio
    • Sun stays and wants John to help her find Jin
    • To supposedly summon the monster, Ben goes in secret passageway, crawls through tunnel, puts hand in murky water, it drains

  • Flashback
    • Charles had a daughter with an outsider, so he has to leave the Island on a sub - we don't know who's Penny's mother
    • Ben takes over Charles' leadership role
      • Why was Ben next in line?
    • TheMissingToe: "Was Widmore branded after his banishment judgment?" (like Juliet)

  • Present
    • Ben to Sun: "Dead is dead. You don't get to come back. So the fact that John Locke is walking around this island scares the living hell out of me."
    • Ben: "The thing that's about to come out of that jungle, I can't control" and then Locke walks out =)
    • Ben: "I don't know where it actually is"
    • Locke: "I do."

  • Flashback to 2007
    • Ben called Charles to gloat: "I'm going back to the Island today" and says he's going to kill Penny first.
    • Boat: "Our Mutual Friend"
      • Name of the book Desmond was planning to read before he died

  • Present
    • Ben and Locke's roles are reversed - John knows where he's going, Ben doesn't
    • It's the wall around our temple - half mile away
      • icebird: "so that means we technically haven't seen the Temple yet then I guess..."
    • Locke: "We're not going in your temple, Ben. We're going under it."
      • Interestingly, Locke says "your temple," speaking as an outsider rather than as one of The Others, even though he's supposed to be their leader now
    • How does Locke know where to find the monster?
      • TheMissingToe: "I think the island is pulling Locke where he needs to go - like Walt pulling the birds into the window"
      • Locke was once pulled partway into a Cerberus vent, but not the one by the temple
    • Ben to Sun: "If you ever get off the Island again, find Desmond Hume and tell him I was sorry."
    • Sun: "Sorry for what?"
    • Ben: "He'll know."

  • Flashback to 2007:
    • Ben shoots Desmond through a grocery bag that Desmond was holding
      • Did the bullet actually hit Desmond? It didn't look like it.
    • Ben planned to shoot Penny, but her daughter Charlie came out of the boat and Ben lowered his gun -- just in time for Desmond to tackle Ben and beat the heck out of him
      • Desmond drops Ben into the water and he begins sinking face-down, and this is the last we see of Ben from this flashback
      • Did Ben go back and kill Penny? Perhaps not -- he didn't kill Danielle because she had a daughter, so maybe Ben didn't kill Penny out of compassion because she had a son
        • james721: "Ben CANT kill a mommy because he was denied his own mother's life since birth"
        • TheMissingToe: "although Ben helped kill many mommies presumably during The Purge"
        • diesel929: "well according to roger ben killed his own mommy"
        • David_Alpert: "think Amy died in Purge? or IS she an Other? (cuz no other mommies)" -- that would explain why Ethan ended up among the Others

  • Present:
    • Survivor: "Ilana and three of the others found guns. They're in charge now."
    • Ilana: "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"
    • Frank doesn't know what she's talking about, so she knocks him out and tells another survivor: "Tie him up. He's coming with us."
      • Was Ilana referring to the four-toed statue? Does Ilana work for Widmore?
      • Lostgeek108: "To me Ben looked very surprised to see Sayid on the plane" -- Ben apparently didn't expect Sayid, but may have assumed the Island made it so Sayid would be there. Perhaps it was actually part of a plot by Widmore to get an agent on the Island. After all, Peter Avellino supposedly worked for Charles Widmore, so it would make sense that Ilana does, as well.
      • David_Alpert: "BEN LIES IN THE SHADOW OF THE STATUE. but its a slam from Widmore on his nemesis. Widmore basically saying Ben has the audacity to lie and claim he has a right to this island in the very shadow of the statue. "How dare you boy!""
      • XsavagistX (Karl): "Frank might know because maybe Alana or whatever is some plant and she didnt know who else were plants along with her"
    • TheMissingToe: "I'm guessing Ilana's mystery box holds equipment to contact Widmore or possibly eqiupment to help Widmore zero in on the island or a portal"
      • Screenshot of the box
      • TheMissingToe: "that big box on the beach they were moving"
      • diesel929: "the big silver one with bamboo shoots tied to it and latches on its side"
      • icebird: "oooh yeah. I completely forgot about that. She was being very protective of that huge metal box. Ben even asked if he could help with that Box before he told lies to Caeser"
      • TheMissingToe: "A great twist would be if the box contained some ancient items that Widmore collected from various auctions"
      • diesel929: "maybe it contains 3.2 million dollars" - the figure Miles asked Ben for
      • TheMissingToe: "ooh - how about some type of detanator for Jughead in the box?"
        • icebird: "I don't think Jughead is controlled by a detonator though. And even if it was, is he really going to detonate an island he wants to go back to?"
    • Ben to John: He had the choice to "either leave the Island or let my daughter die. All I had to do was walk out of the house and go with him. ... So you were right, John. I did kill Alex. And now I have to answer for that."
      • The "him" to which Ben was referring is Keamy

    • Ben falls down into a hole in the cave underneath the temple
    • Lots of hieroglyphics in the cave, one of Anubis talking to the smoke monster? Perhaps Anubis is consulting with the smoke monster to find out what kind of judgment the monster has made about someone
    • Smoke comes up out of vents, comes after Ben, apparently judges him and then goes back into the vents
    • "Alex" appears and says "I know you're planning to kill John Locke. If you try, I will hunt you down and kill you." Then something like "You will obey his every command. Say it! Say you'll follow him!"
    • Ben: "Yes, I'll follow him. I swear."
      • diesel929: "Ben is already working out a plan around that promise"
      • TheMissingToe: "The master is now the servant - I love it"

  • Lostgeek108: "If Penny, Desmond and little Charlie are all fine Do you think that any of them or all of them will return to the Island?"
    • David_Alpert: "Lostgeek - Des is on the way imo. how? no idea."
    • Desmond will want to go back for revenge, and possibly Penny will want to go with him because she doesn't want to be separated from Des again
    • icebird: "I'm sure all of them are going to be involved in the Island. They all seem important. And we'll probably find out why at the end of this season"
    • David_Alpert: "Penny said she would go anywhere with him, right? on the boat in [a] previous episode" -- Lostgeek108: "It was the episode where Desmond was looking for Faraday's mom in Oxford"

  • TheMissingToe: "It would be interesting to see if Miles can read Locke's thoughts like a dead person now"

  • Ben got back to the Island when Charles didn't think it was possible to go back. Maybe Charles will attempt to go back since Ben was successful. He certainly knows how to get in touch with Eloise Hawking because he gave her contact info to Desmond

  • TheMissingToe has a theory that "Smokey could kill as judgment as well as for course correction"

  • TheMissingToe: "one other thing - in the temple on one of the pillars, it looks like hieroglyphs for the Exodus"

  • Other Screenshots / Easter Eggs:
    • Ben's Judgment posted by AstroJones on Sledgeweb: "Unlike Eko, who felt no shame for his sins, Ben weeps at his mistake in causing Alex's death. Makes one wonder just what the Pilot's sins were for the killin' he got."
      • diesel929: "he needed to repent for hitting on Claire in the airport" =)
SPOILERS:
  • Preview for the next episode:
    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QUujxHlcoU
    • Hurley finds "a body bag back here with a body in it" in a DHARMA bus
    • Hurley says to Miles: "Just admit it. You can talk to dead people."
    • Announcer: "Everybody on the Island has a purpose and *his* purpose [Miles?] could hold the answers to all of their destinies."
    • Miles talks to the dead person
    • TheMissingToe: "I liked the foliage being pushed open into some secret hidden area"
    • Someone walks in front of a DHARMA vehicle pointing a gun at the driver and yelling "Stop right there!" - TheMissingToe and diesel929 think it's Radzinsky
    • TheMissingToe: "looks like some more Pierre Chang next week which always good"
  • From SpoilerFix:
    • The next episode's title is "Some Like It Hoth" and it will be Miles-centric
    • "Hoth" is an ice planet from the Star Wars universe:
      • TheMissingToe: "Since Hoth was the ice planet I wonder if this means opening up the freezing area around the Donkey Wheel"
      • David_Alpert: "Wiki says it was pelted with asteroids. Tricia Tanaka sequel? :)"

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