the JoshMeister's LOST Blog and Podcast: "Sundown" Discussion

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the JoshMeister, Congested from DarkUFOlogy and Audibly Lost, Josh "Spivvy" from The Lost Flashbacks, and other fellow LOST fans discuss Season 6 Episode 6, "Sundown".

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Season 6 Episode 6 "Sundown":

2004 "flash-sideways":

Sayid in taxi, going to see Nadia

Nadia is married

Sayid is a world traveler and a professional translator
Nadia's kids already know him and call him Uncle Sayid, and Nadia's husband calls Sayid "brother" (later in the episode it's confirmed that Sayid is in fact his literal brother)

2007 on the Island:

Sayid demands answers from Dogen

Asks about torture machine

Dogen: "For every man there is a scale. On one side is good, the other side, evil."

They fight until Dogen's baseball falls off the table, and then Dogen stops the fight, telling Sayid, "Go. Leave this place. Never come back," as he walks over and picks up the baseball

What is the significance of this baseball? (We find out later in the episode)

2004:

Sayid was still an interrogator for the Republican Guard in the war

Nadia's husband Omer asks Sayid to "do something" about his unfair creditor and Sayid says "I'm sorry. I am not that man anymore."

2007:

Miles to Sayid: "You were dead, man. For two hours. ... So whatever brought you back, it wasn't them."
Claire wants Dogen to leave the temple, but Dogen refuses because he knows that the Man in Black would kill him if he left
Dogen asks for Shephard and Reyes but "Lennon" (the bespectacled translator) says they can't find them

What was Dogen's purpose in asking for Jack and Hurley? Was he planning to send them out to speak to the Man in Black? Was sending Sayid to the MIB merely Dogen's backup plan?
Did this conversation take place just to remind audience they weren't there?

Dogen to Sayid: "This man will not stop until he has destroyed every living thing on this island. He is evil incarnate... No, I want you to destroy him. He will come to you as someone you know, someone who has died. Once you see him, plunge this into his chest. If you allow him to speak it is too late."

The line "This man will not stop until he has destroyed every living thing on this island" is very reminiscent of Ben's claims about Charles Widmore

2004:

Omer is attacked, but Nadia wants Sayid to protect the kids and not retaliate

2007:

Kate comes back, hears from Miles that Claire came to the temple and was acting "weird"
Sayid encounters the Man in Black in the guise of John Locke, and the MIB says "Hello, Sayid," after which Sayid stabs him

The Man in Black calmly pulls out the knife and it has no blood on it, and he asks Sayid why he did that

Was Dogen wrong? Or did it not work because Sayid waited until after the Man in Black spoke before stabbing him? Or did Dogen just lie? (From a later conversation in the episode, it seems Dogen may have just been lying to Sayid to try to get him killed)

Man in Black tells Sayid he can give him anything he wants, even Nadia back

Are the Man in Black's claims a deliberate reference to Satan in the Bible?

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:8-10 (King James Version; view passage in other Bible versions/languages)
"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Luke 4:5-8 (King James Version; view passage in other Bible versions/languages)

"i was thinking of the 'magic box.' the magic box which will never be addressed again i presume" -diesel929

In Season 3 Episode 19, "The Brig", Ben told John Locke that the "magic box" was just a metaphor

2004:

Nadia: "Why didn't you want to be with me? ... Why did you push me towards your brother?"

Sayid: "I can't be with you because I don't deserve you."

2007:

Sayid delivers the message from the Man in Black, that Jacob is dead and that all of The Others at the temple (including Cindy, Zach, and Emma) are free now. He says that they can choose to leave the Island with "the man" and they have until sundown to choose whether to go with the man or die
Claire is being held in a pit inside the temple, and she is singing Catch a Falling Star as Kate approaches
Kate tells Claire that she raised Aaron and that she came back to the Island to rescue Claire so they could be together again, which clearly makes Claire upset

Claire says that she isn't the one who needs to be rescued: "He's coming, Kate. And they can't stop him."
Kate neglected to mention Claire's mother, who is no longer in a coma and who is raising Aaron while Kate is back on the Island trying to rescue Claire

The translator tries to get everyone to stay, but nobody listens to him
Sayid says to Miles, pulling out the knife, "I have to return this."

2004:

Martin Keamy is one of the badguys, and he offers to make some eggs for Sayid

Sayid kills Keamy

Sayid hears someone banging around in another room, so he opens the door and Jin is tied up and has obviously been beaten, and he speaks only Korean

Did Martin Keamy work for Sun's father, Mr. Paik?
Or does Keamy work for Widmore in this timeline? Or is Widmore tied to Paik?

Congested thinks there were some connections between Paik and Widmore in a non-canon viral campaign a long time ago
Is Charles Widmore even alive in this timeline?

Ben got off the Island, somehow—we saw him as a substitute teacher in a recent episode. Did Ben leave the Island in the original timeline? Miles and Dr. Chang's wife left and stayed off the Island in the original timeline, so did Ben leave with the other children and women but then come back?

2007:

Sayid doesn't kill Dogen
Dogen says he was a bank employee in Osaka and was very successful, and says he would go drinking with his coworkers

Dogen: "Every Friday, I picked my son up from baseball. He was 12. The accident was very bad. I survived, but my son-- and then in the hospital a man came to me, a man I had never met. He told that he could save my son's life, but I would have to come here to this island where I would have a new job, and I could never see my boy again."
Sayid: "Who was this man?"
Dogen: "His name was Jacob. ... The man outside, I take it he offered you a similar bargain."

Is Jacob also a badguy?

Dogen: "It is sundown. Will you choose to stay or go?"
Sayid: "I'd like to stay." Sayid then drowns Dogen

Sayid got his revenge for Dogen's group having killed him (and for losing the fight earlier in the episode)
The water had been bubbling. Will Dogen come back to life for real? Or as a "zombie" like Sayid?

"was the water clear?" -bwoood

not colorless, but somewhat see-through; Congested thinks it doesn't constitute "clear" water

"Lennon"/Translator: "Do you realize what you just did? He was the only thing keeping it out! You just let it in!"

Sayid: "I know." (He kills the translator with the knife)
Immediately the smoke monster enters the temple and begins killing people

So what the heck is the ash for?!? Why does it no longer seem to keep the smoke monster out? And why the heck did Lennon allow Sayid (the evil, infected guy who just talked to the smoke monster!) to hang out with Dogen alone?!

The ash still worked after Jacob died, but it stopped working after Dogen died?! What the heck!?

Was Dogen a candidate?

Kate goes to rescue Claire
Ilana: "Where are Shephard and Reyes and Ford? What about Jarrah? Is he here?"
Ben goes after Sayid

Ben: "There's still time."
Sayid (with blood dripping from his knife and an evil smile): "Not for me."
Sun is there, too, and hears from Miles that Jin is still alive

Ilana opens a secret passageway and they escape from the temple just before the smoke monster comes by

"i love how ilana didnt wait for ben before shutting the door. reminded me of when ben shut the door on juliet in the hydra. so now ben is in the temple alone?" -diesel929

Kate follows Claire out into the courtyard and sees all the dead bodies. She picks up a gun and goes with Claire and Sayid outside

Will Claire kill Kate?

Is Jin or Sawyer there in the group with the Man in Black at the end?
Who is this young boy in the group? He's been in previous episodes this season. Where did he come from? Dogen tells Jack that they all came to the Island the same way, implying that they all were born off the Island and were all summoned by Jacob

Pictures of the boy, courtesy of Congested:

"do you think claire got infected by the water?" -baileybear

Some people think that she was infected back in Season 4 Episode 9, "The Shape of Things to Come" (Lostpedia, my blog post), when the barracks was blown up

SPOILERS:
Preview for the next episode (potentially major spoiler):

The preview for next week implied that it's a very Ben-centric episode and that Ben might die

"so he is going to be judged.... again?" -diesel929

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Labels: chat, episode commentary, spoilers, theories