"What They Died For" Discussion

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the JoshMeister and fellow LOST fans discuss Season 6 Episode 16, "What They Died For".

News
I will be recording my live podcast about the series finale episode on Tuesday, May 25th at my usual time, 10 PM Pacific (1 AM Eastern).  There will NOT be a podcast on Sunday night.  If you would like to call into the (potentially) final live episode of the podcast, mark your calendars for Tuesday!

In other news, Alex Castex-Porter (aka Congested, a regular caller on the podcast) has relaunched his site AudiblyLost.com in anticipation of his upcoming documentary on the LOST podcasting phenomenon.  He just released a video trailer for the movie, which you can watch at http://vimeo.com/11838904 — please share with your friends!

Additional insights into "Across the Sea" from Geronimo Jack's Beard (not spoilers):

• The script confirms that Claudia and the Fake Mother spoke to each other in Latin, not Latin and English (the English spoken in the episode was for the viewer's convenience, not meant to be interpreted as the characters speaking English to each other).
• According to Jorge Garcia, the script says that the game that Boy in Black (BIB) found is called Senate, "which may be essentially a precursor to Backgammon, which was introduced [by John Locke to Walt] in the Pilot."
• Beth Shady points out that BIB said "everyone will have to play by your rules," not "I will have to."  At that time BIB and Jacob knew about the other natives on the Island, but BIB's wording is interesting because they only associated with each other and their Fake Mother.
• The script says that the knife that the Man in Black threw at the magnetic well is the same knife that Dogen gave to Sayid.

Season 6 Episode 16 "What They Died For":
2004, Flash-sideways:

• Jack wakes up, looks in the mirror, and his neck is bleeding
• Why?!  He hadn't even shaved yet!
• "maybe he sleepshaves" -diesel929
• David asks Jack if he's coming to the concert, and Jack asks David if his mother is coming (we still don't know who she is yet - should be revealed in finale!)
• "mom is julliet, there's no one else left,lol" -kane
• "david's blue eyes are a give away" -kane
• "speaking of eyes, did you see Jack's eyes, they were brown when he was talking to locke in his office." -kane
• Maybe he met Juliet in medical school!
• Or it could be Sarah, Jack's wife from the original timeline
• "it's annie" -diesel929
• In all seriousness, it won't be.  The executive producers have said that Annie was a minor character and they're done with her story
• Claire comes out to eat breakfast with them; she's living there too
• Oceanic Airlines calls Jack to tell him that they found the coffin and it will arrive later that day... but it's not Oceanic, it's Desmond
• But wait, later in the episode we find out that Desmond is going to David's concert... so what's the purpose of Desmond's phone call?!

2007 on the Island:

• Jack stitches up the bullet wound in Kate's chest
• Kate says they have to kill "Locke" (MIB) because he killed Sun and Jin, who had never gotten to meet his daughter
• Jack agrees that they need to kill Locke
   
• Jack tells the rest of the survivors (Hurley, Sawyer, and Kate) that they're going to go save Desmond because obviously Locke doesn't want Desmond alive

2004, Flash-sideways:

• Desmond beats up Ben and Ben has flashes of Desmond punching him in the original timeline
• How did Des know that Ben was part of original timeline?  Did Des have flashes that made him remember Ben?

2007 on the Island:

• At New Otherton, Miles hears a dead person's thoughts
• Richard explains that he buried Alex after Ben left New Otherton, and Ben thanks Richard
• Ben goes back to his house to get C4 from his secret room
• Ben: "It's where I was told I could summon the monster.  That was before I realized it was the one summoning me."
• Richard says they're looking to blow the plane to hell
• They hear Zoe in the kitchen, they don't recognize her, and Charles Widmore walks in and Ben is surprised to see him
• Charles Widmore says he already rigged the plane with explosives, and that Jacob personally invited him back to the Island
• Zoe sees Locke docking a boat

2004, Flash-sideways:

• Ben gets cleaned up and Locke rolls by in wheelchair
• Where did this take place?  In a hospital?  At the school nurse's office?
• Locke: "A fight?  With who?"
• This line is funny because the use of "who" instead of "whom" has been brought up on The Official LOST Podcast
• Ben says he thinks he "saw... something."
• Ben tells Locke that Desmond said he was trying to get Locke to "let go"
   
• Miles says he's going to a fundraising event at his dad's (Dr. Pierre Chang's) museum that night, and Charlotte will be there so James says he's not going
• Desmond turns himself in to James for hit and run and for beating up teacher
• Desmond gets put in the same cell as Sayid and right next to Kate's cell, and Desmond acts as though it's all according to plan
• This is ridiculous!  How could Des know that he would get placed right next to Sayid and Kate in jail?
• "mrs hawking [Eloise Widmore] told him" -diesel929
• "maybe it was farradork [Daniel Widmore, aka Dan Faraday] then" -diesel929
• "the informant has to be the chauffer [George Minkowski]" -kane

2007 on the Island:

• Sawyer feels bad because of pulling the wires on the bomb in the sub - he didn't trust Jack so he feels responsible for Jin and Sun's deaths
   
• Young Jacob steals the ashes and other things that had been in Ilana's pocket away from Hurley, claiming "they're mine"
• Why is Young Jacob appearing?  Why not normal age Jacob?  It doesn't make any sense.
• "sawyer saw him too" -kane
• "richard did not" -mibmadedonkeywheel
• "so young jacob was real??" -kane
• Yeah, apparently -- he stole the ashes from Hurley and took them to (or morphed into?) older Jacob
• "maybe he liked his younger self cause he didnt have a chidhood. plus hurly didnt even know who he was" -mibmadedonkeywheel
• Hurley not recognizing him gave him a chance to steal the ashes
• "oh what about this he was his kid self because he knew he was going to die so he gave his kid body one last huzzah" -mibmadedonkeywheel
• Hurley chases after him and sees the older Jacob sitting next to a fire
• Jacob: "My ashes are right there in that fire.  When it burns out you'll never see me again."
• Why?  Jacob's ashes had already stopped burning by the time Ilana found them.  Why does re-burning his already burnt ashes make him disappear forever?
• And seriously?  That's what the ashes were saved for all this time?  I was kinda hoping someone would throw them at MIB or make him eat them or something to defeat him, but oh well.
       
• Ben says to Charles that he's not interested in hiding from MIB
• Widmore warns that MIB is going to kill him
• Richard says he knows MIB and all he wants is for Richard to join him, and maybe if they leave together it will give the rest of them a chance to get away safely
• The smoke monster shoves Richard out of the way like a train
• Will Richard be okay?  Is he still immortal?
• I think Richard will show up at some point and surprise us out of the blue and save the day
• "i think richard will kill ben" -diesel929
• MIB comes to Ben and says "Just the man I was looking for"
• MIB: "I need you to kill some people for me, Ben. ...  Because once I leave this Island you can have it all to yourself."
• "All right."
• "Good.  Now whose outrigger is that out there on the dock?"
• "Charles Widmore's."
• "And do you know where I can find him?"
• "He's hiding in my closet."
• "do you think smokey knew about the secret closet? and if ben didnt snitch would it have known they where there" -mibmadedonkeywheel

2004, Flash-sideways:

• Alex Rousseau notices that Dr. Linus is beaten up
• Danielle Rousseau introduces herself to Ben as she offers to take him home with them for dinner
• "oh yeah, you coming with us or i'll have to kidnap you,lol" -kane
• "yes, i caught the kidnapping line" -diesel929
• Danielle: "He died when Alex was 2."
• Danielle: "You're the closest thing to a father she's ever had." (Same as original timeline)

2007 on the Island:

• MIB slashes Zoe's neck
• "dont forget the line smokey gave widmore after he killed zoe: you told her not to talk to me so she was no use anymore" -mibmadedonkeywheel
• MIB says he'll kill Penny Widmore when he leaves the Island unless Charles tells MIB why he came back to the Island
• Charles says something about Desmond's resistance to electromagnetism, and wants to tell the rest to MIB in private (without Ben hearing)
• Charles whispers to MIB, and Ben shoots Charles multiple times, presumably killing him, explaining "He doesnt get to save his daughter."
• Ben gets revenge for Alex's death
• MIB says "No harm done" because he got the information he wanted from Charles
• Ben asks if there was anyone else MIB wanted him to kill, and MIB smiles evilly
• Does MIB want Ben to kill the candidates?  Would Ben kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley?  Just to supposedly get the Island to himself?
• MIB doesn't keep his promises; he promised Sayid his woman back, then sent Sayid to his doom on the sub with a bomb
• The only reason MIB would need Ben to kill anyone is if he needed someone to kill the candidates; MIB can't kill them, but MIB can kill anyone else he wants to.  That's why he's using Ben
• "smoke monster needs ben to be his assassin but ben will double cross him" -diesel929
• "where is miles?" -diesel929
• "miles is out in the jungle somewhere with a walkie talkie. miles does have a walkie talkie, ben gave it to him" -kane
   
• Jacob appears to Kate, Sawyer, Jack -- Hurley is surprised they can all see him
• Kate: "I want to know that Sun and Jin and Sayid didn't die for nothing."
• Jacob: "I'll tell you why I chose them and why I chose you.  And then I'll tell you everything you need to know about protecting this Island because by the time that fire burns out one of you is going to have to start doing it."

2004, Flash-sideways:

• John Locke visits Jack and talks to him about the airplane and the apparent coincidences that brought him back to Jack, leading up to Desmond telling Dr. Linus that he wanted to help Locke "let go" -- the same words Jack said to him
• Jack: "Mr. Locke, I want to fix you, but I think you're mistaking coincidence for fate." (an oft-repeated line on the show)
• Locke asks Jack to fix him

2007 on the Island:

• Jacob: "I brought all of you here because I made a mistake. ... You call him the monster.  But I'm responsible for what happened to him.  I made him that way.  And ever since then he's been trying to kill me."
• Jacob: "I didn't pluck any of you out of a happy existence.  You were all flawed... alone... you needed this place as much as it needed you."
• Kate: "Why did you cross my name off the wall?"
• Jacob: "Because you became a mother.  It's just a line of chalk on a wall.  The job is still yours if you want it, Kate."
• Jacob: "You have to protect it from him."
• Sawyer: "You want us to kill him?  Is that even possible?"
• Jacob: "I certainly hope so because he is going to try to kill you. ... I'm not going to pick, Hugo.  I want you to have the one thing I was never given.  A choice."
• Kate: "What if none of us chooses it?"
• Jacob: "Then all this ends very badly."
• Jack: "I'll do it.  This is why I'm here.  This is what I'm supposed to do."
• "Is that a question, Jack?"
• "No."
• "Good.  Then it's time."
• Is Jack going to go see the light?
   
• "You remember that bamboo field you woke up in" -- near where the light is
• "Do you have a cup?"
• Jacob whispers something in Latin and then instructs Jack in English, "Drink this."
• Jacob: "Now you're like me."

2004, Flash-sideways:

• James says he's shipping Jarrah, Hume, and Austen off to the county jail
• Kate tries to talk James out of it but he says "Nice knowing you"
• Des in car to Kate and Sayid: "I think it's time to leave."
• Ana Lucia Cortez is the cop driving the van and she asks where Desmond's friend is with all the money - it's Hugo
• Hugo gives Ana Lucia $125,000 and she drives off
• Des says that Ana Lucia isn't ready yet
• Des told Sayid to go with Hugo
• Des tells Kate she's going to a concert with him, and he hands her a dress

2007 on the Island:

• Ben: "Why do you bother walking?"
• MIB: "I like the feel of my feet on the ground.  Reminds me I was human."
• MIB looks for Desmond in the well
• MIB: "He said Desmond was a failsafe.  One final way to make sure that I never leave this place. ... I'm going to find him.  And when I do, he's going to help me do the one thing I could never do myself.  Destroy the island."
• So MIB would be okay with the destruction of the Island?
• Foreshadowed by MIB smashing the bottle with the cork, perhaps
• Does this mean MIB got his wish in the flash-sideways timeline?  Did he get free in the flash-sideways timeline?

Other questions, comments, and theories discussed in the chat:

• "do you think penny is going to show up in the finale?" -diesel929
• Maybe in the flash-sideways
      
• "flock left Claire on the other island. didn't he? everyone leaves her on the island" -baileybear
• Unless he killed her... but I don't think they'd do that without showing us.  I think we'll see Claire again in the finale.  It would only be right.
• "so what is claire doing?" -diesel929
• "[MIB to Claire:] 'claire they ditched you again.  please kill hurley' 'ok'" -diesel929
      
• CrapCastBilly's theory is that it's not the Jughead bomb that caused the rift, it was the sinking of the Island -- and when the Island sinks in the original timeline, the two timelines will merge.
• He also thinks it's possible that the Island from the original timeline may be the one we saw sunk in the flash-sideways (I disagree with that theory; I think it was pretty clear in the show that the sunken Island was in the flash-sideways)
   
• "desmond will connect them" -diesel929
• Yeah, otherwise why waste our time with all Desmond's actions in the flash-sideways?
   
• CrapCastBilly points out the electromagnetism reference and how Desmond must be the savior?  He's taking care of things on both sides
    
• CrapCastBilly's theory: maybe the concert is the benefit for the museum - Des will call Sawyer say I'm here come arrest me, (or Sawyer shows up with Miles after all) runs into Jack's (wife / ex-wife) who is Juliet(!) and she says to Sawyer "Let's go dutch."
• Maybe Charlie and Claire will meet up at the concert!
• Sawyer meets up with Juliet, Daniel sees Charlotte there, Jack is going to see Kate, Hurley took Libby there on a date? but Hurley is with Sayid -- maybe to pick up Nadia, and then they'll pick up Libby on the way.  ;o)
• "piano recital/geronimo jackson/drive shaft concert" -diesel929
    
• "now that Jack is Jacob is MIB stuck?" -baileybear

Screenshots and Easter Eggs:

• Screenshots: http://gallery.lost-media.com/thumbnails-1558.htmls

Preview for the final episode:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhCeGBwHHs4

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